God having forknowledge

[darthdodo]

Ok, this debate has come up before... but I was reading through the Bible just a moment ago and read in 1 Peter verse 1 & 2:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Elect according to the forknowledge of God the Father, through sanctifacation of the Spirit unto obedience and sprinkling of your blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

Now... unless the word for "forknowledge" has changed, I beleive that means knowing beforehand... Ok, the question. Is it possible for the Creator, God almighty to know things before they happen?

The verse above seems to concur with that logic...

[Dac Bailu]

What was the general consensus the other times this was debated?

[Colleen MqCray]

Duh! Of course, he wouldn't be God otherwise.

[darthdodo]

y0! < agree with ^

but there's certain people here that, for some reason, beleive almighty God couldn't have it...

... it bewilders me though...

there's people known as Prophets, and they Prophesy... they get prophesies from God... now are they saying Prophets can do it, but God can't?

[jmcmatt]

darthdodo said:

there's people known as Prophets, and they Prophesy... they get prophesies from God... now are they saying Prophets can do it, but God can't?

For starters, this statement is somewhat contradictory.

Now, I'm not going to make my position known, but since the people I think your targeting won't be on regularly for about... 2.5 weeks, I'll play devils advocate, so to speak.

If He knows what we're going to do, but doesn't affect it, than any free will we have is an illusion, God is forcing our hand, no? If he knows where we'll end up, and how we'll get there, there is no way our free way could fit into that.

In the middle-ground of opinions, I've met a girl that says God doesn't know exactly what we'll do or where we'll end up, but he has plans for everything we could possibly do. Now, Seeing as how God is well... God, it doesn't seem impossible that he could have centillions upon centillions of variations to his plan, all of which end at a pre-set circumstance. This would lend to prophecy, which would simply be devinely stating one or multiple possible outcomes. This would make sense in reference to prophecies of destruction that were averted, e.i. the several "turn-or-burn" prophecies.

And the opposite end of the spectrum from the first opinion, God doesn't know what's going to happen, or what we'll do. This theory supports free will, but seems to make God a lot less powerful than everyone acts. I've never heard it, but I'm sure I'm not the only one to think this way: if this is the right theory, than God may be a lot more powerful that this theory suggests. The idea that God keeps things from going too far awry without directly influencing free will seems to be a lot more difficult than overseeing what he already knows is going to happen. To take the shepard analogy, the first theory suggests we're all sheep, walking down the same chute with one way in and one way out. The second would relate to us still being sheep, but instead of being forced through chutes, we're allowed to roam in a close off pasture with hundres of different gates, but all the gates lead to the same place. And the final, to show the difference, instead of being passive, God has to actively keep us in line, like a shepard herding the sheep with a staff, if not through affecting our free will, than affecting nature and the like to affect us, and lead us to a final point in his plan. To me, the third seems like the most difficult.

I'd write more, but we have a wicked storm rolling in and I need to scram. I'll write more later.

[Colleen MqCray]

I fail to see why having foreknowledge keeps us from having free will. Just because He knows what we are going to choose beforehand doesn't mean He makes us choose what we do... just that He knows.

[Dac Bailu]

I agree with the sum of Ulan's statement.

It may not mean that God is forcing you to make that decision, but saying that He already knows what your decision will be before you make it means that He has everything planned out already, which kind of contradicts free will.

[jmcmatt]

You know, I just typed about 8 paragraphs and then my internets cut out. I clicked backspace, but it said I had to refresh, so I lost it all.

[TFE]

Well, personally, knowing what someone is going to do doesn't make them do that. It's a very difficult concept to grasp, but, invariably, is true. Just because God knows that you're going to do something doesn't mean that he chose it to be so.

I find this illustration to be helpful- a log is floating down a river, obviously heading toward a rock in the river. By the way the water is flowing, it's easily forseeable that nothing will affect its course. Just because you know it's headed for the rock doesn't mean you made it hit a rock.

Or, another way, think that you've lived one hour of your life, and then immediately go back in time to relive the same hour. Obviously, you'll know exactly what some people are going to do (sans any interaction you may have had with them to cause them to act a certain way- we're talking about third parties), but having that knowledge doesn't make them do that.

[Dac Bailu]

tfe said:

Well, personally, knowing what someone is going to do doesn't make them do that. It's a very difficult concept to grasp, but, invariably, is true. Just because God knows that you're going to do something doesn't mean that he chose it to be so.

But for anyone to know something, it has to be fact. And for it to be fact it must have already been decided that that's what was going to happen.

[Nathan Jey'Daan]

But what if God, being omnipotent and all-powerful, exists outside the restraints of time and can exist, from his point of view, at any point of the time we are restrained by? If that were true, then theoretically, He, existing in any (or every?) point of time would be able to see what we will decide in the future without it actually becoming a "predestined" decision for us.

[Laryn En'faal]

admin said:

But what if God, being omnipotent and all-powerful, exists outside the restraints of time and can exist, from his point of view, at any point of the time we are restrained by? If that were true, then theoretically, He, existing in any (or every?) point of time would be able to see what we will decide in the future without it actually becoming a "predestined" decision for us.

Someone's been watching a little too much Star Trek lately, eh?

No, actually I like that description. It is kind of hard to fathom just how omnipotent omnipotence really is o.O

[Jacinth Visor]

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Elect according to the forknowledge of God the Father, through sanctifacation of the Spirit unto obedience and sprinkling of your blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

To put it simply, God knew He would have an elect, He knew there would be a Bride, He did not know who would be in the elect.

It was the how not the who.

[Dac Bailu]

admin said:

But what if God, being omnipotent and all-powerful, exists outside the restraints of time and can exist, from his point of view, at any point of the time we are restrained by? If that were true, then theoretically, He, existing in any (or every?) point of time would be able to see what we will decide in the future without it actually becoming a "predestined" decision for us.

Good point.

[jmcmatt]

Accepting that just because God knows something is going to happen and didn't choose it is saying that God doesn't have a plan, everything else has a plan that God just happens to know the end point of.